Question on hitches

Feel like stirring it up a little with a hitch thread.

Does anyone on here besides me use a gooseneck adapter. Mine is the Colibert and I use the B & W Turnover Ball

What are your preferences and why? I know some of you post this in your signature but feel free to still join in this thread.

What 5th wheel forum would be complete w/o this question/debate?.

I think the gooseneck topic came up in the old forum, With a couple of people saying they had trouble with the gooseneck stressing the Pin box and causing cracks in the metal or something like that ??

I like the 5th wheel myself. I also like the goosenecks but on a cattle / horse / equipment hauling type trailer.

The problem with a goose neck adapter is that it has a longer arm (leverage) and puts more pressure on your pin box. Think of the leverage of that approx 24" adapter between the truck hitch and the pin box.

Many people have used them with no problems. Some have said they had a problem. I can not say either way because I have no experience with it, just the theory. I have heard that some manufacturers will void the warranty if you use the adapter, unless the trailer is designed for goose neck.

Another option is to have a competent welder beef up your pin box for goose neck operation.

Another option is to have a competent welder beef up your pin box for goose neck operation

I'll agree on that. We have a couple of different Goose neck trailers on the farm and both are very "Beefed " up on the neck.

scottz wrote:The problem with a goose neck adapter is that it has a longer arm (leverage) and puts more pressure on your pin box. Think of the leverage of that approx 24" adapter between the truck hitch and the pin box.

Many people have used them with no problems. Some have said they had a problem. I can not say either way because I have no experience with it, just the theory. I have heard that some manufacturers will void the warranty if you use the adapter, unless the trailer is designed for goose neck.

Another option is to have a competent welder beef up your pin box for goose neck operation.

I understand the claim the stresses are much greater because of the leverage, but my adapter is is about 14" long not 24" and sits straight over the hitch ball, not offset like some. I just can't imagine that the leverage action is that much unless you are doing jackrabbit starts and stops or in the case of a crash. I know also that most of the manufacturers will void your warranty for using the adapter but then again they void the warranty for almost anything.

I just find it interesting since goosenecks are rated at much higher weights than any RV 5th wheel hitches on the market today and their rotation/pivot is so much greater. I have never seen a gooseneck in a bind. It seems that welding a flange/gusset at the overhang frame joint, like they do on gooseneck trailers, and on the pin box framing would solve the problem and make the unit much stronger regardless of the hitch type. This of course would be much easier at manufacturing time. I won't go into the safety of RV systems.

I was wondering if anyone here ever had/talked to/seen a pin box break on a unit using a gooseneck adapter and I am curious about the failure rate. The only pin box break I have ever seen on a 5th wheel was a unit using a fifth wheel hitch. I have always been curious as to why the industry went to 5th wheels instead of goosenecks. I suspect that it's because it's easier to back into/hook up, but that is only a guess. There are a lot of gooseneck trailers in use outside of the RV world.

Like I said, just putting up here because it couldn't be a fifth wheel forum w/o this topic

timage,

Grover on this and the old forum had some problems with his pin box while using the goose neck.

There is a link to his post on the old forum.

http://68.15.40.218/wildcat/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3155&SearchTerms=pin,box

He also added pictures into the old forum.

http://wildcatonline.com/picupload/pictures.asp

Look for the pictures by Grover.

oldelmer1 wrote:timage,

Grover on this and the old forum had some problems with his pin box while using the goose neck.

There is a link to his post on the old forum.

http://68.15.40.218/wildcat/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3155&SearchTerms=pin,box

He also added pictures into the old forum.

http://wildcatonline.com/picupload/pictures.asp

Look for the pictures by Grover.

I remember that post, I just didn't realize he was using a gooseneck adapter because it never said in the post. He also stated he found several other Wildcats that you could move the pinbox by hand but never said anything about an adapter. As his signature matured he states he has a RBW Slider 16K.

There was a later post by moo2613 where he was using an adapter but it sounded like he had the same problem as Grover. I have e-mailed Grover for clarification. BTW I have checked mine and don't have any movement. I bought mine used with the adapter and it is welded to the pin box so to change I will have to buy a pinbox and a hitch

Well, there is alot of differene between a goose and a fith. The goose neck fronts are usually taller in front and the steel is usually an "I" beem that runs front to aft at a 45 degree angle.They have to be taller to have the front supports on the vertical coming from the bed they've got to be able to clear the box side and usually hau more weight. A fith wheel usually has "C" channel for front support running left to right. Its a whole different design made for a whole different purpose. Granted they are both ment to tow but the goose neck trailer is built for that style hitch and the different leverage that it gets. From what I understand the fith wheel trailer is not even comparable to the strength of the goose. that being said if you look at my pictures you can see were the bolts broke of my side support once those bolts are gone you can physically move the hitch by hand so that frame is not as strong as a goose you are using an aluminum fame to add strength to the steel chassic, without those bolts you have a week front frame. When you add more leverage or a different angled leverage I just don't see those bolts holding on to a piece of .032" aluminum for very long, but I know people ave done it for years and no problems. I've personally seen six wildcats with loose pin boxes and those owners had no idea, it's not a good feeling to be the one to show them but at least they no and can get them fixed before any type of incident. I have a regular slider hitch in my truck and had the same problem. I was able to get Rod at forest river to say that they must have put to short of bolts in the front frame that was the same problem that moo2613 also had.

Let me wind up here...

Ok so Grover has seen at least six Wildcats with this issue and his is not a gooseneck adapter. Of those six he has seen I wonder how many of those were using gooseneck adapters? We have established one person using the gooseneck adapter on the other forum that had the same problem as Grover, who was using the fifth wheel.

I'm not a physicist or engineer but I don't completely buy the leverage argument as long as the adapter sits straight over the ball and extends straight down from the kingpin as do several adapters on the market. The distance from the vehicle to the trailer remains the same (the two opposing forces). Another consideration is that the top end of the adapter has to use the entire king pin flange and not just a small area around the king pin for attachment. There is another brand that is offset from the gooseneck ball which I do think may increase leverage issues as it then may act as a fulcrum. An exception to this argument is if the hitch or structure itself is unsound. The problem with the pin boxes seem to be weak structural assembly and in the case of the very few Wildcats that have had a problem which evidently uses a cage, it is not the pinbox structure, but where the cage attaches to the main frame structure using insufficient bolts/screws and backing material. If some part of the structure or hitch is loose enough to allow movement then yes that extension of the adapter may create more leverage than the shorter king pin, however the distance between forces still remains the same and the results may be the same as evidenced by Grover and moo having the same problem.

I am very familiar with goosenecks having pulled them since I was a teenager in varying sizes (16-32') and ratings(14,000-24,000 GVWR). The differences are that they do use heavier steel and all the attachment points are welded, not screwed together. Most weld a gusset plate at the neck extension/frame joint which to me is strictly for structural integrity. Some, but not all, weld a gusset plate at the neck/hitch joint, none of mine ever did. They use angles in some of the neck joints, partially I think for structural strength and partially for clearance.

To me the steel is not really a part of the argument because either the metal structure is heavy enough for the load it is carrying or it is not. Even having a screwed in gusset plate at the neck/frame would create a tremendous increase in relieving joint stress. The neck/hitch joint gusset plate should be built into the adapters and should be sufficient as long as the entire king pin flange is used.

Just my thoughts. I guess I am the only one on here that is using the gooseneck setup.

Sorry so wordy guys but I said I was going to create lively discussion

All the cats that I seen none of them had a goose adapter, just fith wheel hitches the pin boxes were never broke just tore the bolts out of the frame. That being said you still have to think about the leverage thing. Anyone who has done any maint. has had a bolt that won't come off with a standerd breaker bar, the first thing you do is find a cheater bar to extend the bar for more leverage, I know we're not extending but even if you take that bar and extend it at a 90 deg. angle to the end of the breaker bar you have increased the leverage No matter how you've got your rig attached I think alot of it is how you tow it also

Grover, in your example of a cheater bar you are creating a difference in the distance between the two opposing forces, the bolt and your hand, in an environment where the resistant side is designed to move but has become reluctant to do so. Now let me put just a small tack weld on that nut/bolt connection and how big will that breaker bar need to be?

All the problems you have seen have been using the fifth wheel hitch where that alleged cheater bar is absent.

I see what your saying but what if and I mean what if you hooked up aft of the pin that would create a different type of focre on the pin than what it was intended. I could see if you came straight down from the box itself but FR has already extended the hitches forward. It would seem that you are putting a different type of load on the box more twisting than forward and aft

grover wrote:I could see if you came straight down from the box itself but FR has already extended the hitches forward.

Thereby creating the initial leverage. hmmmm...

but the downward angle of the pinbox to where the king pin attaches is similar to that of a gooseneck which is probably at least partially designed to offset that force.

Ok Grover don't start making good points now, it might cost me some money in the form of a hitch and pinbox.

I still think (read hope) that if you drive reasonably, make sure everything within your control is tight and don't overload the front end the extra 12-15 inches doesn't create that much of a leverage issue. That is assuming that the structure is sound of course. Of course they do put 5500 pound axles under a trailer that is rated for nearly 12,000 pounds counting us to ensure that the trailer is properly loaded and hoping that hitch takes the rest. Don't ya just love the safety margins they provide.

Thanks for the discussion. Now I have to go decide which is cheaper, the towing devices or taking it someplace that can add some structural integrity, since I no longer have a place to work on issues like this. Shoot I made need both. Of course I could pretend I'm a gambler and leave it as is. Decisions, decisions, decisions

Well just remember that there's alot of people out there that us the goose neck without any problems I know moo2613 was or is using the goose neck so I would do like you said and just keep an eye on it and drive careful like you said. I've only seen one trailer that was actually broken at the frame. That was just beside the box it cracked the "C" channel in half, but I don't know how he towed it. To bad some of the members with goose neck adapters didn't jump in to the discussion, maybe they will.

I pull hay and cattle trailers all the time. Wish I could pull Wildcat as much. Converted king to goose with RV4 adaptor. Works very nice. It is even installed on the new (Trailair) hitch. I've only pulled the cat 7800miles so far but have had no nightmares yet. Was really surprizing in Montana and South Dakota and Wyoming most camp-grounds 5vers had goose neck adaptors on them, Not all but more than usual. Happy camping.