So You have a Lippert Frame and you want to know if you are screwed or not Inst. Inside

First topic message reminder :

Step One. Realize most 5ers on the road have Lippert frames and accept that yours may be cracked.

Step two: Remove the Kingpin surround and inspect the welds. These welds are known for being pourus and poorly penetrating on Lippert frames.

Step three: Remove the under panel.

Tools needed
Sharp knife
Putty knife
Screw Gun
Square bit
A buddy (optional)

Start by removing all but two of the edge trim screws. Remove the rear trim entirely by removing all screws and scoring the caulking. Then pop it off with the putty knife.
Once that is removed remove the remaining side trim. Keep in mind that it will be glued in place by both caulking and the putty in the inner seam of the trim. Pry the side trim off and let the panel hang. There will be a 2x4 attached to the front of the panel that will keep it from falling to the ground.



Step Four: Inspect your front and rear crossmembers for cracks and bad welds. If you see cracks or bad welds skip ahead to step six. See pics cracks and bad welds in mine. Also mine is bowed up one inch at the center.







Step Five : Reinstall underpanel (reverse of installation) ( tip #1: hang the middle of the panel first then the rear then the sides) Congrats your frame is ok but you may want to have it reinforced see step 6.

Step Six: So Lippert got cheap on your frame and now you have issues that needed to be corrected for your safety and the safety of everyone else on the road. Lets get started. Call around and find a trailer shop that does repair (not a trailer dealer/ repair shop- they will overcharge, you want a shop that fixes tractor trailers, horse rigs and goosenecks.) If the repair shop has mobile service (some do) leave the bottom panel off and go inside and start tearing out the interior. If they dont just put enough screws in the under panel to make it secure and go on to step seven.

Step Seven: It time to remodel:

Tools
Sharp knife
Putty knife
Screw Gun
Square bit

All of the fixtures in the upstair (bed, cabinet, drawers) are screwed into place. carefully locate all attachment screws and remove the pieces one by one. Then stow them in the living area of the trailer to get them out of the way. Under the furniture you will find wiring fo the front lights. The wiring is simple but I took a pic just to be sure it went back together correctly. So now you have a bare master suite (that is to say everything in the carpeted area is off the floor). Now comes the fun part, stick you hand down between the back side of the cap and the carpeted floor. Thats right, your fingers are now touching you front frame crossmember (the craked one in my pics). Now grab the plywood and with a firm upward motion pull it off the frame. The plywood is nailed in 8 places to the frame rails themselves. It will pop up with some force. Once the plywood is up you will now be shocked to learn that there is no insulation whatsover in the front of your trailer (between the cold ground and your happy ass in the master bed)You should be able to fold the carpet back and see the rails like this.




Now for a structural examination of the issues at hand.

Problem 1: Ten inch gussets on top and three inch on bottom (this will cause the rail to bow upward in the middle due to the in stress load on the beam top to bottom.


Problem 2: 1/8 inch crossmembers that in a perfect load situation can not handle a 10k pound situation


Problem 3: First Rule of structural steel was not observed. The frame (front to back)aid 1/4 inch (or about) the Pin box is nearly 1/4 inch and the frame rail is less than 1/8 inch. In frame building the 1/8 inch would be called a preplaned failure point, crumple zone, or in racing a fuse section ( as in the point built to fail). Lippert should be ashamed and as a community we should pool our collective experiences and take action against them.

Step 7: is coming as soon as i get my trailer back from the shop.

Time to check mine out.

s4tuner wrote:Full replacement of front crossmember with 1/4 wall 2x5 and then triangulation using 1/8th wall 2/3 from the front crossmember diagonal back to rear crossmember on both sides. 1/8 plate gussets on everything. It will last longer than the rest of the trailer.

The plywood is one piece and you can leave the carpet attached and pull it off the frame from front to back and use the carpet as a hinge.

Did you happen to take pictures of the repairs before putting it back together. Just curious.

I went to the WC factory before I purchased mine and they really rolled out the red carpet. Everyone I met was super awesome and they even let me take pictures.

I spent the WHOLE day running around meeting the workers and asking loads of questions. I promised that I wouldn't post them on line... However I don't like what I'm hearing here.

IMO these pictures don't give any trade secrets away. If anyone from FR or WC asks me to take these down I will in a heart beat but I'm only posting these so that anyone with chassis problems can see how the chassis is constructed... and hopefully get a better repair as a result.

I would have hoped FR would be a little more forthcoming in helping WC owners out. I'm not trying to stir things up!!

This is my 2cw.













P.S.... these are a batch of 31TS being made at the end of 2009.... and I was only taking general shots so they are a bit vague & fuzzy!

Thank you so much! Scruffy was saying just yesterday that it would be nice if one of the Forest River people who advertises Wildcats on this site would post photos of the framework. This is perfect.

Tater

A request - do you have photos of the wall studs and rafters? Or weren't they doing that phase of construction when you were there?

I have hundreds of pictures!! But I'm a little concerned about rubbing someone the wrong way. What do you reckon? I think I need permission to post any more than this.

It was a great day out - highly recommended. They are built from the inside out and the walls go on last followed by the roof. The slide outs go in last.

The side walls were made off site and come in truck loads.. The ones I saw were Aluminium construction (UK spelling).

The front and rear walls are constructed with wooden studs and I have good pictures of those before they were covered.

The roof was the most interesting. It is made in 4 sections and most of the wiring goes into the void and drops down to the converter.... I have good pictures too... including how they put the rubber covering roof on!

Surprising the east coast rear walls are made out of wood.

Walls are vaccum bonded on site at the west coast factory. I don't recall what the rear wall was made of.

Here are a few end walls ready to go on. You can see extra wood for the ladder and rear lights. These are ready for a 2010 31TS.

That is cool!!! If I am ever in the area, it would be fun to take a tour. Thanks for the pics, at least it gives a person an idea as to what is lurking under all that skin.

We have driven our '06 29 BHBP for six summers now. Maine/New Brunswick, all the way to San Diego/LA from Richmond, VA, Florida four times, central Indiana/Chicago (WC plant visit, pretty cool), Yellowstone/Utah/Idaho/Colorado, Daytona, (NASCAR fans in this family), just all over. Good thing to have the extended warranty for the charger/inverter that went out this summer (repaired at the megaRVboxstore, CW) and getting back to finally repair/replace the gears on the landing jacks at the local dealer. That's been the only repairs in 6 years!

. . . . until they picked up the 'Cat to replace the jacks and noticed the pinbox pushing up about 3 inches before the trailer moved up. It's nice to have the extended warranty but the timing of the teardown, inspection, claims approval and repair is frustrating, especially with a weekend of reservations and tickets to the race in Bristol coming up.

The thin metal gussets(?) that hold the side walls in the front of the overhang have torn on both sides and 4 or 5 of the 6 welds have popped, the front tube has flexed so much to tear this metal and develop two 1/2 inch long cracks right around the pin box.

The family and the service techs were thankful at first that the pinbox didn't fall off, but now I am concerned about the integrity of the entire frame as all of that up and down energy has been translated to the front of the side walls (and beyond?) The #6 (big) sheet metal screws wore 1/2 inch holes in the aluminum at the lower edge of the side walls while connected to the steel gussets (with the up and down motion)

The repair seems to be to reweld new thicker rectangular gussets on the sides, 1/4 inch? triangular gussets around the pin box, however the inspector/claim recommendation has yet to be made, hopefully in one more day, (working on the 4th week with the Cat in repair garage, nose cone off, insulation and sawdust showing. . . .) Long story short, just want the repair/fix to be right.

Did think about an air pin box but $800+ is a bit steep right now, really considering the TrailAir Equaflex suspension (even though it's made by a certain frame company). Have Airlifts on the rear axle of the 2010 MegaCab and had them on the '01 after the first trip in '05 on I-64 West around Providence Forge VA (the DIP warning signs and the bridge abutment "launching ramp" are still there after 6 years!)

Thought three times about trading in the ole 'Cat after this repair, but I know this vehicle too well. With the help and advice of the forum's members, I know what to be on the lookout for as the next years and miles go by.

Don't know how I missed this thread, but looking at the original pictures, my first thoughts were inferior steel and/or underestimated stress specs.

TC

bigcatdriver,
to the forum. Nice to have you here. What kind of extended warranty do you have? What's the name of the company? We have an extended warranty, and wonder if the company is even in business anymore.

Tater

Ok so here are pics of the repair. Everything in the front of the trailer is way to thin for 5th wheel use. I had the front crossmember torn out and it waas so warped here it is lying on a straight gurder. It rose nearly 4 inches in the center.


Then I had a new 1/4 wall put in and had the pin box framed in and also had diagonals placed as well as much larger gussets.





I then had all the garbage spring hangers removed, a subframe fabricated to strengthen the incredibly week frame rails (yes I know they are I beams but they are soft as dough) and two new square tube axles installed. It tracks true and square and pulls better than new. No more bouncing no more surging.

Congrats s4tuner, looks really good!!

TC

jacandjan wrote:Walls are vaccum bonded on site at the west coast factory. I don't recall what the rear wall was made of.

West Coast are vacuum bonded on metal studs.

XtraRide/Protective is our extended warranty company and there are some developing issues about who is going to pay for these repairs.

Looking at the welding, your repairs have MUCH better welds. They look to be SMAW welds vs what looks to be GMAW welds on the original. SMAW = Stick Welding, GMAW = Wire Fed. The GMAW process isn't necessarily inferior, but looking at the welds, it looks like first year high school shop work.

BobnPi wrote: it looks like first year high school shop work.

This might explain a lot, actually.

TC

GNAW can be actually a better weld. Less heat.

bigcatdriver wrote:XtraRide/Protective is our extended warranty company and there are some developing issues about who is going to pay for these repairs.

I'd have to ask Scruffy who our extended warranty company is. He has that stuff in a file somewhere. He's out of state on business, when he gets back I'll try to remember to ask. The company we used says they will refund our money if we never have a claim, and so far, we haven't made a claim. That could change if we have structural problems or if our delamination problems get worse.

Tater

GNAW can be actually a better weld. Less heat

Good point Dan. But less heat usually means less penetration. However, with the base metal being so thin, you are probably right. But if the wrong wire is used, it can cause the welds to be brittle and thus crack as seen in the pics. Same thing with stick welding though. Either way, the welding quality is terrible on the original welds.

You are correct on that. U should get good penetration with the write wire and settings. About all we use out here to build the farm trailers.

Being a hobby welder myself I knew I was in deep sh?t as soon as I saw the first factory weld under the cap. The shop that did the repair used a really heavy duty mig and the man at the trigger was a real pro. I think he could have welded two dimes together in one pass. His welds are the perfect combo of heat, penetration, wire speed and surface material.

FYI, Scruffy and Tater, we too have an extended 7 year warranty purchased from RV Wholesalers along with our 2006 27RLWB Wildcat. The warranty was written by Phoenix American which still seems to be in business as an extended warranty company. The problem is that the unused policy refund after 7 years comes from Signet Financial Group not Phoenix or RV Wholesalers. Bigger problem - Signet ceased business operations in mid-2011. It appears that they have not filed for bankruptcy but just closed down all operations. Anyway my thought is that if any warranty repairs are due and you have these companies providing coverage then you might as well use the warranty now rather than expect a refund later.

Steve
AZ Mountaineers

FYI, Scruffy and Tater, we too have an extended 7 year warranty purchased from RV Wholesalers along with our 2006 27RLWB Wildcat. The warranty was written by Phoenix American which still seems to be in business as an extended warranty company. The problem is that the unused policy refund after 7 years comes from Signet Financial Group not Phoenix or RV Wholesalers. Bigger problem - Signet ceased business operations in mid-2011. It appears that they have not filed for bankruptcy but just closed down all operations. Anyway my thought is that if any warranty repairs are due and you have these companies providing coverage then you might as well use the warranty now rather than expect a refund later.

Steve
AZ Mountaineers

Mine failed this past summer near Grand Junction. It flexed and ripped the cross member. Nearly dropped it on my truck. Still arguing with extended warranty. They don't want to cover it and it had exceeded the 2 year Lippert. So next stop is Good Sam to see if they can get somebody to help with the $3500+ and weeks lodging in CO. Makes a body want to stay home

You would think the NHTS national highway traffic and safety would be interested in this type of failure. This is a safety issue. I would think they would have something to say to Lippert or Forest River for using inferrior frames or frames not suited for the load. I might have this backward, it might be NTHS, whatever..

I have a 2011 32QBT and about 1/2 of the screws in the nose had worked out or snapped off, on my model its was because of the install. The nose and the bottom panel overlap and then are screwed into the metal frame. I removed all the screws and drilled the fiberglass 2-3 sizes larger then put #10 self tappers in with plastic cap screw caps. Now the fiberglass has room to expand and move without snapping the screws off. I put white plastic caps over the screws so they are covered from the elements and I can snap off the cap to check the screws are still tight once or twice a year. No problems since.

Gus, I think you have a great idea. My 2006 27RLWB has lost cap securing screws every year and every year I try to replace them with larger screws. But the breakage has continued. The idea of larger holes in the plastic to allow flex should have been obvious but I never thought of it. I will begin the conversion this travel season. And, so far my '06 shows no signs of frame deterioration so we must be lucky.
Steve