Gas vs. Diesel

by Specktout on 7/6/2010, 3:37 am

First topic message reminder :

I just got back from our maiden trip with the new 28RKSB WC, 4000 mile round trip to YellowStone and S. Dakota back home to S.Texas. I'm pulling our WC with a 2007 GMC 2500HD with a gas 6.0L engine, I averaged 7.9 mpg towing over the entire trip, the lowest was in West Texas 109º into the wind 6.3 mpg, the best in Wyoming 9.5 mpg. The truck had adequate power on the interstate's and flat roads, but could have used more power at higher altitudes and long grades up mountain passes. I'm trying to justify the increased cost of buying a diesel truck, but I'm curious if a diesel will give much better fuel mileage while pulling and solo, or is it about the same, I understand the power is going to be much better, also my truck only has a 26 gal fuel tank and stopping every 150 miles to fuel up got old pretty quick. Any comments on actual fuel mileage while pulling your WC would be appreciated. I'm guessing our WC weight at about 9200# loaded.

by talala on 7/10/2010, 12:34 pm

Page 8 of the order guide says what you said but seems like this says something different. page 18 PACKAGED OPTIONS/EMISSIONS-

CAMPER PACKAGE (471)
Availability:
• Optional on all Pickups
Not available with:
• 20" Wheels and Tires, Pickup Box Delete (66D), 3.31Axle Ratio or
Heavy Service Front Suspension Package (67H)
Includes:
• Extra heavy service front springs (4x2) (2 up upgrade above the
spring computer selected as a consequence of options chosen. Not
incl. if maximum springs have been computer selected as standard
equipment)
• Heavy service front springs (4x4) (1 up upgrade above the spring
computer selected as a consequence of options chosen. Not incl. if
maximum springs have been computer selected as standard
equipment)
• Rear stabilizer bar (SRW only)
• Slide-in camper certification
• Rear auxiliary springs (F-250 only)
NOTE: Salesperson's Source Book or Ford RV Trailer Towing
Guide should be consulted for specific trailer towing or
camper limits and corresponding req. equipment, axle
ratios and model availability

Check with your salesperson,

by KHUBER on 7/13/2010, 3:42 am

We're pulling a 2008 rkbs with a 2008 GMC crew cab short bed with the Duramax engine. We just returned from a trip to New Brunswick, Canada and had put 2,000 miles on while towing. My fuel mileage while towing averaged from a low of 10.4 mpg to a high of 11.7 mpg. This was all hand calculated and I was impressed by how accurate the DIC ( Drivers Information Center ) display was. It was within + - .2 with the exception of two times and I attribute that to fill up. I had stopped at a full service station so I know the tank was not topped off. I always fill so the fuel is in the filler neck so I know I have accurate readings. Solo I average between 18 and 21 mpg. I have seen as high as 23.1 and this is slightly improving as engine is breaking in. I just turned 12,000 miles. I am very pleased with the performance of the diesel. There is no comparison between the Duramax and my previous 5.7 Chevy gasser. I purchased the truck while the big GM sell off was going on. I was looking for a gasser and none to be found. I had no interest in diesel because I purchased one of the 5.7 diesel conversion jokes back in 1980. A salesman suggested that I consider the diesel if I am going to be towing. I started doing some research and was pleased with what I found and made what I feel was a good deal. I have much more confidence with this truck than I ever had towing. The Allison transmission with the tow haul mode is great. From what I have seen you get a good bit of your money back at trade in time because the Duramax seems to hold its value. The only dissappointment I have with the truck is the 26 gallon fuel tank as others indicated. It looks like GM finally woke up with the 36 gallon fuel tanks. I had read that the larger tank is only available on 4wd. Right now I carry a few 5 gallon cans of diesel for a piece of mind. Haven't been able to convince myself that I need that $ 1,200.00 + aftermarket tank that bad. As long as I am towing something I will be pulling it with a diesel. Good luck in whatever decision you make.

KH

by cattledog on 7/15/2010, 3:28 am

2011 Ford F250 SuperDuty 6.2Liter Gas (Where have you been all my life.) Wife and I just got back from Key Largo FL and was really happy getting 12.9 mpg towing 27RL WildCat. All the power you would ever want and the room in a 4door truck. Very low maintance and Quit real Quit. I have nothing against diesel (I own one 2005 6.0L) I do love the truck I use it to haul cattle 24ft stock trailer 12 big 1200 to 1400 cows or bulls. BUT the 6.2liter gas has more horsepower,than the 6.0 diesel which I would love to have, but when I bought the 6.0 liter diesel new the diesel option was 5000.00 I don't think I'll ever recover that money not to mention normal service intervals are 4 times more expensive and now the 6.7liter 2011 ford the diesel option is 9500.00 How can one justify the money just to pull a RV seasonaly. But I understand braging rights. Happy Camping.

by kcnielsen on 7/15/2010, 4:03 am

Dan, its not the horsepower - its the torque of a diesel that makes the difference. Have you tried towing the loaded 24ft stock trailer with the 6.2Litre gas? I went from a 6.0Litre gas GMC with 300 HP/350 torque to the Cummins with 300HP/610 torque and there is no comparison. The GMC really struggled. The Cummins is just getting into its groove.

by cattledog on 7/15/2010, 4:30 am

Yes I have, We travel to Yukon OK to bring back Reg Limousin Cattle, and Sorry to say the 6.2liter Eats Stock Cummins for Lunch along with all the noise and smoke. But if those Cummins are chipped Now that makes a big differance. Thought I would throw in a little Chevy advertisment and it tells who is on top of the Towing and Torque heap. We live here in cattle country and Lots of Dodges here with lots of frowns also. I still love my diesel and the 6.0 has 570 ft lb of torque the 6.2l has 405 torque but will still outpull the 6.0l diesel. Power curve/RPM. This link comes from Chevy and talks about the diesel and gas both.

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6651039/news/2011-chevrolet-duramax-diesel-makes-397-hp-and-765-lb-ft-bests-ford-and-ram/index.html

by Specktout on 7/15/2010, 8:13 am

I made a visit to my local Chevy/GMC dealer here in Aransas Pass Tx. and the sales manager informed me of the new changes in the 2011 and newer diesel trucks. They now have something called DIESEL EXHAUST FLUID (DEF) urea-based fluid (whatever that is) consists of 2/3 purified water 1/3 urea. OK so what does this stuff do and how much does it cost, well it's to reduce emissions and it cost apx. $9/gal and 5 gals will take you about 5000 miles. Next question, what if you run out of DEF?
The truck will slow down to 55 mph max when you get low on fluid, and to 4mph when you run out. Really, you got to be kidding me. $45 per 5000 miles for muffler fliud and the increased cost of maintenance plus the higher intial cost of a diesel engine, I don't know if it's going to be cost effective to purchase a new diesel, maybe a used one.

by jetskier on 7/15/2010, 8:27 am

That's why I own a non-catalyst diesel. No egr, no cat/DOC, no DEF, No DPF, no regens, no payments. I got rid of the muffler for a resonator when I upgraded the exhaust about 8 years ago.

by talala on 7/15/2010, 12:20 pm

Specktout, the DEF helps the fuel economy, my truck gets from 15%-20% better milage so in 5000 miles I save approximately 50-70 gal of diesel (@$3.00=$150-$210) and the DEF costs $11.00 for 2.5gal at parts stores so I am glad to pay $22.00 to save $150. It's no problem putting it in. You get plenty of warning that the DEF is running low, so if you ignore the warnings then you should stop, no different than running out of fuel, it will STOP!

by jetskier on 7/15/2010, 4:25 pm

The DEF indirectly helps fuel economy. If you removed the DOC/SCR/DPF off the exhaust and retuned the PCM to ignore those sensors, the engine could care less about the DEF. For the 2010 emissions using DEF, the PCM is tuned more efficiently so the exhaust is compliant with the EPA rules. If they didn't put the DEF in the exhaust system, they'd have to run the engine richer to keep the NOx in check to meet regs. So you can see where the fuel economy comes into play.

by jetskier on 7/15/2010, 4:27 pm

Found this from Ford....

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/SD_Diesel_Aftertreatment.pdf

by ScottandGrace on 7/16/2010, 2:44 am

So far, Dodge Cummins RAM3500 and below do not use DEF.
So there's my pitch for Dodge and oh by the way, Cummins for both the third and forth gens don't smoke and the are extremely quiet. The forth gens are as quiet as a gasser and the thirds are nearly so.

by cattledog on 7/16/2010, 3:22 am

I saw where Chrysler is Recalling 189000, 2007-2009 because of Smoke and emmissions issue's. And owners are real unhappy with the out come of Extremely low fuel mpg when they get it back. I don't believe they have sold enough 2010 yet to recall, But Hyundai out of Korea wants to tie up with Dodge trucks not sure how that will fly but Chrysler is now concidering it because of all the unsold stock sitting at the truck plants. Maybe they haven't sold any of the QUIET ones in my neighborhood yet. DEF is not a bad thing, makes a big saving on fuel and very clean. My 2005 has soot EGR issue from day 1 wish it had DEF...

by Maxtor on 7/16/2010, 5:54 am

One of my hobbies is building Ford Big Block race engines. I have a 800 hp 434, and have built many 450-550 hp Big Blocks. I built a regular gas friendly 428 for our 1973 Ford F250 that had 450 hp and 440 ft .lbs torque. Yes, it would pull the 5th wheel fine, but at a substantial loss in economy compared to our diesel. The reason is that a diesel makes maximum torque at a much lower rpm, around 2000. The gas engine makes maximum torque at around 5300 rpm. Engines very, but the above examples are close to most engines. Therefore if both engines pull the same weight, the diesel has the potential to do it using less fuel. If you can afford the diesel, buy it,,, if not buy the gas engine.

by BayouDude on 7/16/2010, 7:37 am

The low RPM torque of a diesel is phenomenal. I went from an F-250 with the V8 that only made 350 ft-lbs of torque at high rpm to a 6.6L duramax making 660 ft-lbs of torque at 1600 rpm. If the truck had stiffer springs you would never know the wildcat is back there.

by cattledog on 7/16/2010, 8:35 am

Having both in the driveway and feeding fuel to each everyday I've found it cheaper to operate the gas than the diesel and really cheap when I burn E85 in the gaser. But with that said I believe the other post has a point that if you can afford the diesel and keep it long enough to recop the cost up front, you might be money ahead. And torque curve is not a straight line or is HP. My diesel loves to get good fuel mpg at 65-70 mph in the power band, but when on the Oklahoma turn pikes at 75 mph it really goes down hill when I go over 2000 rpm, HP goes up torque starts going down. Along with poor mpg. I've left the power band and am running higher rpm to maintain the speed, Not a good mixture. Maintance costs are high, a simple oil change at 3000 miles with both fuel and the oil filter over $100.00 where my new gas has a 7500 mile change interval but we do it at 5000 miles $22.00. The turbo failed on the diesel and I had 16 days left on the warranty, I dodged a $1800.00 repair. But if you can afford it It might just be the ticket, I'll take my gaser and extra money to the beach and resturants and eat like I can afford it.

by kcnielsen on 7/16/2010, 9:00 am

I smell diesel envy

by Glen Schumann on 7/16/2010, 12:40 pm

cattledog wrote: Maintance costs are high, a simple oil change at 3000 miles with both fuel and the oil filter over $100.00 where my new gas has a 7500 mile change interval but we do it at 5000 miles $22.00.

I've determined by doing several oil analyses that I can go 10,000 miles between oil changes on my Duramax. That means 2 oil changes per year vs. 5-6. Makes a big difference. An oil analysis can be done for ~$18. Fuel filters go for several oil changes. Now, if it wasn't for those nasty front hub changes!

by Specktout on 7/16/2010, 3:17 pm

Glen Schumann wrote:
cattledog wrote: Maintance costs are high, a simple oil change at 3000 miles with both fuel and the oil filter over $100.00 where my new gas has a 7500 mile change interval but we do it at 5000 miles $22.00.

I've determined by doing several oil analyses that I can go 10,000 miles between oil changes on my Duramax. That means 2 oil changes per year vs. 5-6. Makes a big difference. An oil analysis can be done for ~$18. Fuel filters go for several oil changes. Now, if it wasn't for those nasty front hub changes!

I'm using AMSOIL oil and filter in my 6.0L gas GMC and changing it every 20k miles, AMSOIL recommends 25k if you use their filter, you can send the used oil off to them for analysis for a small fee. So far no oil related issue with any of my engines using AMSOIL. Using a good synthetic oil will help reduce maintenance costs.

by cattledog on 7/17/2010, 12:42 am

We own 3, 379 classic Peterbuilts with C15 Cat engines in them. And we have the oil tested about every 6month for engine wear only, not oil breakdown. So I was wondering if and this may not be an issue if the trucks are off warranty, but what does GM service say about long extended service interval verses there warranty? Personaly I believe the synthetic oil is far superior, But in todays economy everyone is looking for the loop holes. Now with that said, The service I mentioned above comes from the ford service interval spec's. The big catch 22. I don't think I would trade my diesel off, we have a stock trailer hooked on it every day pulling cattle, so its not like we don't use it. I have to much invested it, But when you have them side by side, the diesels at our house cost more to operate, but all are work horses including the gasers. That brings me back to my first question, If you don't pull with it everyday and just drive it from time to time or even use it for your daily driver how can you obsorb or recop the extra cost up front. I do understand the diesel capability of pulling bigger and heavyer RV's but the gaser's have those capabilitys also. And the Topic was Gas Vs Diesel. All the Dodge guys say how good there trucks are, but when reading what they own, most of them are chipped or tuned, so that tells me they were'nt happy with what was under hood to begin with. All the GM guys say how wonderful the fuel economy is, that diesel option $ up front buys alot of gas, try filling 3 Peterbuilts, when fuel was 4.31gal and each hold 300 gal and I'll show you someone looking for economy. So far all the ford guys are just HAPPY gas or diesel, what is there formula?????

by Maxtor on 7/17/2010, 4:38 am

I can not speak for others, but for us, the cost of maintenance on our diesel is not a concern. I change oil every six months if it goes 5000 miles or not. I mainly use our truck to pull the 5th wheel and pull our race car trailer, so it sits in the car port most of the time. Our truck is very tall, so it is not as user friendly as I would like. I keep a three foot step ladder in the bed so I can get up there when I need to. That old saying that "if you have to ask the price of a boat, you can not afford it"
somewhat applies to our diesel trucks... "if you worry about the price of maintenance of a diesel,, you can't afford it." Diesel engines require regular maintenance, so that has to be factored into your purchase. My experience with a Ford truck is that it is very well made, fun to drive, and lasts for years. There has been some engine issues with early 6.0 engines and egr problems, but for the most part, they are great trucks. I still say for dependability, a Ford cab and chassis, Cummins engine, and Allison transmission would make the perfect truck. Although,,, the new 2011 Ford 6.7 Diesel might be as good or better than a cummins, only time will tell.

by Carpe Diem on 7/17/2010, 5:18 am

Maxtor wrote:I can not speak for others, but for us, the cost of maintenance on our diesel is not a concern. I change oil every six months if it goes 5000 miles or not. I mainly use our truck to pull the 5th wheel and pull our race car trailer, so it sits in the car port most of the time. Our truck is very tall, so it is not as user friendly as I would like. I keep a three foot step ladder in the bed so I can get up there when I need to. That old saying that "if you have to ask the price of a boat, you can not afford it"
somewhat applies to our diesel trucks... "if you worry about the price of maintenance of a diesel,, you can't afford it." Diesel engines require regular maintenance, so that has to be factored into your purchase. My experience with a Ford truck is that it is very well made, fun to drive, and lasts for years. There has been some engine issues with early 6.0 engines and egr problems, but for the most part, they are great trucks. I still say for dependability, a Ford cab and chassis, Cummins engine, and Allison transmission would make the perfect truck. Although,,, the new 2011 Ford 6.7 Diesel might be as good or better than a cummins, only time will tell.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I purchased mine primarily for towing the boats and 5er, but had to make a sacrifice and it became the daily driver too. I needed a tow vehicle, but just couldn't justify the expense of a second car to drive to work......gas, maintenance, insurance, space, etc. The ford diesel has suited our needs just fine and I would like to upgrade to the 2011 ford diesel in the future, but need to see what bugs they have to work out first. I may be a little weird, but I love the smell of diesels and the sound of the turbo spooling up is cool.......bring on the diesels......

by kcnielsen on 7/17/2010, 7:11 am

I use my diesel for towing the fifth wheel and it comes in handy when other needs arise. I do all the maintence myself and the cost is not much more then running synthetic oil in a gas engine. The longer interval between oil changes makes a difference too. The owners manual states 7500 miles for severe service and 15000 miles for regular service. I change oil and filters at 7500 miles but I'm sure I could go longer. You buy a diesel for the superior towing performance. It doesn't make sense to expect the performance of a diesel but only if it doesn't cost more.

by talala on 7/17/2010, 9:01 am

Having pulled with gas power in the mountains before, I don't miss the down shifting and 30mph up grades, loss of power at altitude and frequent gas stops, I'll pay the difference for piece of mind, and ease of pulling mountain grades! Go Diesel!

by Maxtor on 7/17/2010, 11:32 am

talala wrote:Having pulled with gas power in the mountains before, I don't miss the down shifting and 30mph up grades, loss of power at altitude and frequent gas stops, I'll pay the difference for piece of mind, and ease of pulling mountain grades! Go Diesel!

Not to change the subject, but I see by your map, you have not visited the best states yet.
Oregon, Washington, Idaho, North and South Dakota, are great States to visit. I have to update my map.

by scottz on 7/17/2010, 12:38 pm

If I had to justify the cost of my truck based on use, I would not be able to do it; gas or diesel. Same for the Wildcat. Even though I use my truck to haul things, I could never actually justify it; I could rent a truck around town pretty cheap. The truck and cat are luxury items that I own because I enjoy them and can afford them.

I change my oil & filter every 5k; don't see it as a huge cost. I drive a Ford 2000 7.3L PSD and plan to keep it for a long time, so I take care of it.

As a side note; I just ordered a 2011 Ford F350 with the 6.7L as a work truck; should be here in a couple months; we'll see how it does. Everything I read has me pretty excited about it.

As a final note: Of course Ford guys are happy. What's not to be happy about?

by talala on 7/17/2010, 2:27 pm

would update the map if I could find the instructions, seems like I have the darn'st time with pictures.

by Maxtor on 7/17/2010, 3:12 pm

talala wrote:would update the map if I could find the instructions, seems like I have the darn'st time with pictures.

Go here;

http://www.visitedstatesmap.com/

by Sean on 7/18/2010, 4:21 am

Just filled the tank with diesel and for a 50/50 mix of hauling and being solo fuel worked out at 14.91 per Gallon (4.54 litres). so quite happy.
Last week though I did achieve 19.92 per gallon solo on country roads.

by talala on 7/18/2010, 1:16 pm

Maxtor, I can get that far, now how do I replace my old map with a new one?

by Maxtor on 7/18/2010, 4:26 pm

talala wrote:Maxtor, I can get that far, now how do I replace my old map with a new one?

http://www.wildcatcamperforum.com/meet-the-members-f2/adding-signature-easy-instructions-t2040.htm?highlight=adding+map+to+signature

http://www.wildcatcamperforum.com/how-to-add-pictures-and-states-visited-maps-f11/

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