Mucho Trouble With Honda Gennies

"AC IN" came on almost immediately when CAT was plugged into the powermate. So I put the GFT in all receptacles and all showed open ground.

Not sure what step to take next.

TC

TC wrote:"AC IN" came on almost immediately when CAT was plugged into the powermate. So I put the GFT in all receptacles and all showed open ground.

Not sure what step to take next.

TC

I would try making sure the generators and the cat have a common ground. You could use a jumper cable to extend the ground from the generator to the cat.

Scott, could you explain this process step by step for me so I can grasp what you're suggesting?

Read these entries on another forum just a few minutes ago:

"The Honda EU2000i Generator does not tie the Neutral and Ground
connections together. (View schematic here:
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/Gen_Own_Web/pages/pdf/31Z07603.pdf) "

"Talked to a tech at Honda in Georgia. They were very polite. They were
also very firm. On this model, you can NOT bond neutral and ground. Why
the hell they can't say that in their manual or marketing fluff is beyond
me. No wonder these things end up like-new on Ebay... :-( "

"I think what they mean is that the internal ground is not attached to
anything and/or that there is no internal provision for bonding the ground
like some generators have. If you attach it to a real ground (water
pipe...) and then attach the neutral to that it would be a bonded ground.
The EU2000 is kinda funny, in that the voltages off the hot and neutral are
pretty random until you ground the neutral. That forces the hot to 120v and
the neutral to 0v. Maybe that is why you are having a problem."

TC

TC wrote:"AC IN" came on almost immediately when CAT was plugged into the powermate. So I put the GFT in all receptacles and all showed open ground.

Not sure what step to take next.

Since both Hondas are showing Open Ground, they must both be missing a connection to ground. But, when looking at the owners manual online, it looks to be by design.

Page 17:

Honda portable generators have a system ground that connects generator frame components to the ground terminals in the AC output receptacles. The system ground is not connected to the AC neutral wire. If the generator is tested by a receptacle tester, it will not show the same ground circuit condition as for a home receptacle.

Looking at page 14, would this help? It appears that the second paragraph was inserted by the lawyers. To me, and by no means am I an electrician, it appears that the plastic casing of the generator prevents an adequate ground. I bet the Coleman has metal legs that are in direct contact with the ground, but the Honda probably does not. If you are comfortable with pounding a metal stake into the ground and then attaching a wire to it and the ground terminal, I wonder if your problem would go away.

Ground Terminal

The generator ground terminal is connected to the frame of the generator, the metal non-current carrying parts of the generator, and the ground terminals of each receptacle.

Before using the ground terminal, consult a qualified electrician, electrical inspector or local agency having jurisdiction for local codes or ordinances that apply to the intended use of the generator.

Just don't take my word for it, electricity should not be played with. While I would try this since I'm comfortable with it and I'd only be messing up MY generator, I'd appreciate it if any electrician watching this thread would chime in with their expert opinion.

TC wrote:Scott, could you explain this process step by step for me so I can grasp what you're suggesting?

Read these entries on another forum just a few minutes ago:

"The Honda EU2000i Generator does not tie the Neutral and Ground
connections together. (View schematic here:
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/Gen_Own_Web/pages/pdf/31Z07603.pdf) "

"Talked to a tech at Honda in Georgia. They were very polite. They were
also very firm. On this model, you can NOT bond neutral and ground. Why
the hell they can't say that in their manual or marketing fluff is beyond
me. No wonder these things end up like-new on Ebay... :-( "

"I think what they mean is that the internal ground is not attached to
anything and/or that there is no internal provision for bonding the ground
like some generators have. If you attach it to a real ground (water
pipe...) and then attach the neutral to that it would be a bonded ground.
The EU2000 is kinda funny, in that the voltages off the hot and neutral are
pretty random until you ground the neutral. That forces the hot to 120v and
the neutral to 0v. Maybe that is why you are having a problem."

TC

Yep, after looking at the wiring diagram, it looks like the only way to get ground is to use the ground terminal if none of the metal frame of the generator is touching the ground.

FYI, it's on page 56 of the owners manual I found online at Honda's website.

Just ran across this over at RV.net and it could very well apply to my situation. A few months back, I was re-routing the fresh water drain and when I would touch a pipe bracket attached to the CAT frame, I would get a mild shock. This only after the RS2000 was installed. Didn't have this problem before then. In fact, the local dealer is already scheduled to track the problem down on 9-4. Could a bad ground situation on the CAT be causing my problem?


"I am a Master electrician and I still cannot explain it. A camper wired correctly does not have a bond between the Neutral and Ground. So if you hook up a generator, everything is fine. If for some reason someone installs a bonding jumper in their camper, it appears from my field tests that there is a possibility of current available on the frame of the camper. It is not a full 120, but partial voltage. When you hook a Honda up to a house that is fully grounded, the generator then has a good reverence to ground and all voltage disappears on the neutral and the hot has full 120. I do not have enough experience in this area to fully explain it, but it is just like any transformer. Without a reference to ground, you will meter voltage on the neutral and hot. Once they are wired properly they are then refereed to as Grounded (neutral) and ungrounded (hot) and the ground is called grounding conductor. I've now even confused myself, so hopefully someone can understand me or at least what I mean"

TC

I didn't know that you were an electrician.

I found this thread on another forum that's pretty recent. Don't know if it's the thread you are talking about. But with all the threads I've found in my Google searches, you'd think Honda or the line monitor folks would know what to do.


http://www.airforums.com/forums/f448/ground-fault-if-honda-grounded-not-42337.html

Mark, I'm not the electrician. The guy making the post on the other thread's the electrician. The extent of my electrical prowess is to fry circuits and get shocked.

TC

Ah, I'm still stumped.

It seems that all generators have open grounds and that you are not the first to have this problem. What I'm amazed about is that there is no easily found answer to your problem. You want to protect your equipment, so you buy a very expensive toy to protect your stuff. Since you want to protect your stuff when dry camping, you by a Honda generator (not cheap either) that also is supposed to protect your stuff. Then, when you put the two of them together, nothing! Honda says I don't know and so does Xantrex. I really don't expect Honda to know, but you've got to be kidding me that Xantrex has never seen this before, not when I see this question pop up on so many forums.

Good luck to you, I hope that Xantrex comes through for you.

Did you see that Xantrex has a forum?

Try asking your question there too.


http://www.xantrex.com/forum/

Mark, I've already looked it over. Doesn't offer anything more than we have already discovered together. I think it will be worth a call back to CW tomorrow to let them know what I've found out so far. They offered yesterday that if it ended up being the Hondas, they would get hold of Honda for me and see what they would/could do. I also want to contact the dealership that installed the RS2000 to see if a bad ground could make a difference. I guess there's the outside possibility that the RS2000 and the Hondas are setting there staring at each other and the bad ground is the bridge between the two that's missing.

It seems to me someone here other than me has the RS2000 installed in their CAT. Wish they'd chime in to let me know what troubles, if any, they've encountered.

TC

TC wrote:Scott, could you explain this process step by step for me so I can grasp what you're suggesting?

mattebury wrote:
Just don't take my word for it, electricity should not be played with. While I would try this since I'm comfortable with it and I'd only be messing up MY generator, I'd appreciate it if any electrician watching this thread would chime in with their expert opinion.

TC wrote:A few months back, I was re-routing the fresh water drain and when I would touch a pipe bracket attached to the CAT frame, I would get a mild shock. This only after the RS2000 was installed. Didn't have this problem before then. In fact, the local dealer is already scheduled to track the problem down on 9-4. Could a bad ground situation on the CAT be causing my problem?

I'm becoming convinced this is a ground problem. I was suggesting that you run a ground lead (a jumper cable would work for a test) from the generator ground terminal to a good ground on the Wildcat; should not be any harm or danger doing this.

I'm a little concerned now about the shock you were receiving. Sounds like something (RS2000?) is floating (not grounded correctly). Who installed it? I think you should also check to make sure the RS2000 is grounded correctly (read the manual).

I'm not an electrician either; if you feel uncomfortable working on this, you should probably consult one.

TC wrote:
"Talked to a tech at Honda in Georgia. They were very polite. They were
also very firm. On this model, you can NOT bond neutral and ground. TC

I wonder how the Honda gets along when neutral and ground are bonded inside the trailer? I am reasonable sure they are bonded in the original Wildcat converter/AC panel, but I am not familiar the RS2000.

TC,

Did you find anything out?

Not yet. It's down to two possibilities though (I think) :

Either I have an improper ground from the Xantrex inverter to the CAT frame...or...the Xantrex inverter doesn't like the "inverted" power coming from the Hondas.

I'm hoping the 1st possibility will be the culprit, because the second possibility still doesn't make any sense to me. However, this much more I know; the Xantrex saw the shore power when connected to a Powermate 5000w generator (without inverter), and everything ran fine. So I'm not sure the improper ground issue will take care of it. Guess there's an outside chance I'll have a pair of Honda EU2000i gennies for sale soon unless I can figure out how to make the Xantrex and the Hondas like each other.

Will know more after 9-4. That's when the ground wiring will be checked out by he who installed said Xantrex inverter.

Stay tuned...

TC